F3/F4@SFB1491 meeting

Zoom meeting

Zoom meeting

Chloé Gaudu (Bergische Universität Wuppertal)

Zoom meeting room: https://tu-dortmund.zoom.us/my/michael.windau?pwd=U3RGK2ZIYTVKMWVUeXZ3RTNyT1QwUT09

    • 2:00 PM 4:00 PM
      Discussions 2h

      Key-points of the meeting

      • Reviewed the current structure of the F3/F4 projects.
        • Share and write resources to fully establish the workflow within each PI's group and between F3 and F4. There have been some changes from the initial proposal, so this will help establish clear communication and organization.
      • Start the discussion regarding the extension proposal, to be started by the end of 2023, as well as the deliverables for the phase 1.
      • Discussed the hadronic interaction models and the air shower simulation codes for the F3/F4 projects.
      • Discussed the RIVET tasks for the F3/F4 projects.
      • Discussed the workshop with hadronic interaction model developers.
        • When? Between October and December 2023.
      • Agreed on planning a full day in TUD to continue today’s discussions.
        • When? End of May/early June?
      • Let’s grow the population of the existing mailing list (sfb1491_f4@lists.uni-wuppertal.de) to the whole of F3/F4!


       📗 F3/F4 project?


      • Wolfgang Rhode’s group: Mirco Hünnefeld@IceCube (F3.1) 
        Johannes Albrecht’s group: x@LHCb (F3.2)


      • Karl-Heinz Kampert’s group: Chloé Gaudu@Auger (F4.1) 
        Johannes Albrecht’s group: Julian Boelhauve@LHCb, Lars Kolk@LHCb (F4.2/F4.3) 
        Kevin Kröninger’s group: Michael Windau (F4.n)

       📄 Work plan written by Kevin Kröninger (F4.n)

      • 2022: Finalization of the Monte-Carlo-fitting/tuning framework (PhD 1: Salvatore La Cagnina). Advantage: full control over the statistical model and interpretation (fitting rather than tuning) and possibility to add further parameters, constraints.
      • 2023: Development of interfaces to all important generators in particle and astroparticle physics to generate MC samples (PhD 2: Michael Windau).
      • 2023: Interpolation for observables as a function of the tuning parameters.
      • 2024: Global fit to collider and astroparticle datasets.
      • 2024: Extension of the fit to include further parameters, e.g. mass composition of cosmic rays. Application to global fits.
      • 2025: Improvement of the tool, on-the-fly-generation MC data and parameterization-free models. 

      Johannes Albrecht’s group?

      • F4 is hadronic cross section, F3 is leptonic cross section
      • 6 people within the 2 projects
        • 4 PhD student: Julian Boelhauve (@LHCb) 
                                     Jan Ellbracht (Luminosity@LHCb) 
                                     Lars Kolk (Cross sections@LHCb + RIVET analyses) 
                                     Mirco Hünnefeld (Cross section@IceCube)
        • 1 Master student: Noah Behling (Hadronic interactions)
        • Hans Dembinski (@LHCb)
      • Different datasets: pp and SMOG datasets
      • 2 big developments: luminosity and trigger developments 


       📄 Writing the extension proposal?

      • Start writing the extension proposal by November 2023.
        • Should be submitted in year 3 for the extension request (latest early year 4).
        • Ask Wolfgang Rhode about his group.
      • Phase 1 report: put together the accelerator-related papers but also combine Auger and Icecube papers, to establish the F3/F4 link. 

      📄 Publications for the deliverables for the phase 1 review?

      • Hans Dembinski and Julian Boelhauve (LHCb@F4): “Measurement of prompt charged-particle production in pp collisions at $\sqrt{s}$ = 13 TeV” paper + upcoming follow-up analysis that could also be published.
      • Mirco Hünnefeld (Icecube@F3): “Measuring prompt muon component” proof-of-concept paper and/or CORSIKA related paper can be published.
        • Hans pointed out that the proof-of-concept idea that is used to Icecube could/should be done aswell for Auger.
      • The RIVET analyses should be the proof of input which can be sold as a deliverable aswell (like a software project category)
        • Lars uploaded his dataset on HepData recently.


       💻 RIVET-related matters?

      • Establish communication between all those working with RIVET.
        • Lars Kolk, Chloé Gaudu, Michael Windau and Hans Dembinksi so far.
        • Compile a list of datasets we wish to Rivetize for the tuning of hadronic interaction models.
        • Establish the current status of this Rivetize-task.
      • Salvatore and Michael’s code has a RIVET implementation working. 

       💻 Air shower simulation codes for F3/F4?

      • So far only Pythia8 seems to be open to the tuning process that F4 is proposing.
        • Pythia8 not implemented in CORSIKA 7, only in CORSIKA 8.
      • CORSIKA 8 should be released in the flow of ICRC 2023, therefore the Pythia8 implementation can be used in phase 2.
        • Until then, one can use MCEq or CONEX in the meantime.
        • MCEq used for the fitting part, since CORSIKA 8 is a factor 10 slower at the moment. 


       💬 Workshop with the hadronic interaction model builders (maybe also CORSIKA/CONEX/MCEq?)

      • Who? EPOS, SIBYLL, QGSJet, Pythia (maybe DPMJet, but defo Anatoli Fedynitch for MCEq)
      • What about? Talk to the theorists/phenomenologists
        • Inconsistencies and discuss how to improve the models
        • Implementation issues between hadronic interaction models and EAS simulation codes
      • Date? Between October and December </aside>

       💬 Next F3/F4 meeting?

      • Where? In TUD in a room all together.
      • When? A doodle poll will be issued for full days from end of May/beginning of June.

      How to prepare?

      1. Individually, go through the current F3/F4 proposal and evaluate if you current work matches the proposal advancement. F3/F4 proposal screen-shared by Karl-Heinz Kampert during the meeting. 
      2. Per project, meet together and establish link between each individual work (not only the SFB-PhDs but also all those involved in the project). Draft a short slideshow to present the everyone’s work and how they are linked.


       📩 Mailing list for F3/F4 efforts? Use sfb1491_f4@lists.uni-wuppertal.de!

      • Wolfgang Rhode’s group | Representative: Mirco

      Wolfgang Rhode wolfgang.rhode@tu-dortmund.de 
      Mirco Hünnefeld mirco.huennefeld@tu-dortmund.de 

      and others?

      • Johannes Albrecht’s group | Representative: Hans Dembinski

      Noah Behling noah.behling@tu-dortmund.de 

      Lars Kolk lars.kolk@tu-dortmund.de 

      Jan Ellbracht jan.ellbracht@tu-dortmund.de 

      Nicole Schulte nicole.schulte@tu-dortmund.de 

      Julian Boelhauve julian.boelhauve@tu-dortmund.de 

      Johannes Albrecht johannes.albrecht@tu-dortmund.de

      • Kevin Kröninger’s group | Representative: Michael Windau

      Kevin Kröninger kevin.kroeninger@tu-dortmund.de 

      Michael Windau michael.windau@tu-dortmund.de

      • Karl-Heinz Kampert’s group | Representative: Chloé Gaudu

      Karl-Heinz Kampert kampert@uni-wuppertal.de 

      Chloé Gaudu gaudu@uni-wuppertal.de


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